Order of Training and level of Care

[RedEagleWhiskey]

Hey there, so a question I have than I've been chewin' on and trying to decide. What order of Leveled training do you think is the most beneficial? which training have you most benefited from? Least? I plan on taking CCW course that Mr Furman has recommended but what else, is force on force any good? (is there any FnF classes worth our time in Az?)

[AZSig]

In this trainers humble opinion, FoF training is unrivaled as the best way to obtain real life stress/fail point training in using your pistol in a defensive encounter against another person.
That being said, in order for FoF training to be the most useful it should be utilized by people who are extremely proficient with their firearm. They should know their gun inside and out and should be able to safely manipulate it. You should be trained to the level of being able to safely draw from a holster and shoot very fast and very accurate on a static range before FoF training would be truly useful.

[DevinMelder]

I agree with AZSig that FoF is the best way to train realistically, and also agree that you should have a high level of mastery of the handgun before starting this. I would not only say that you should be proficient shooting from static positions, but also proficient at moving and shooting, moving while drawing the gun, engaging multiple targets, and shooting w/ both strong and weak hand only. You won't be able to fully utilize FoF training until you have at least some proficiency in these areas. My opinion anyways.

[Frisco]

You really need to look at your level of competence with a firearm. Set ego and anything you have "done larnt on de interwebz" from cool youtube videos of tactical wanker running around in 5.11 everything and cool shades aside. Take an honest inventory of the skills you have.

Can you truly run your gun instead of your gun running you?

Can you clear a stoppage or a failure without having to stop, scratch your head and call in two or three of your pals to form an ignorance pool to figger out why it ain't going bang?

Can you draw, get your sight picture, shoot, and get the hits you NEED right now?

Can you shoot, move, load, and get your hits at the same time without thinking about what you're doing?

If you haven't even taken a CCW course (which is little more than a basic gun safety seminar with live fire...or not), then the last thing you need to even consider doing is an advanced skill acquisition like Force On Force training.

I taught lethal force, basic through advanced defensive tactics and advanced pistol and carbine tactics at three academies...and the one thing I can tell you is this: Even relatively well trained officers and agents weren't ready for REAL Force on Force training at the end of their 26 (or 15-16 at the federal academies) weeks at the various academies. Advanced and Force on Force came after applying for and being chosen for specialized training.

Leave the idea that you're going to be an "operator" after a weekend of yelling BRO! and fist bumping behind. Sadly...that is a BIG portion of what is being packaged and sold nowadays.

Start at the basic TECHNIQUES of defensive shooting, then when you have absolutely mastered those, then move on through intermediate and advanced techniques. Then and only then should you even consider force on force training.

You will discover that I HATE and I mean HATE WITH A PASSION the word "tactics" and "tactical" as it is generically applied to everything in the realm of defensive shooting nowadays because it sells product. Fuck me, if it doesn't have TACTICAL emblazoned on the side of it...by god man...that shit will get ya killed on da streetz (insert sarcasm here). Fundamental defensive techniques, once mastered, along with practice, practice, practice, and thousands of rounds down range (with a purpose, not dirt shooting with your buddies) are only the first steps in advancing.

Consider this as well...WHO will you be training with? Will you be training with men and women who are truly dedicated to defensive shooting, or is it going to be a group of dewds who are looking to have something to brag about at a BBQ?

A good place to acquire really good gun handling skills is at local USPSA and Steel matches. No...they are absolutely NOT "tactical" training, but what they do is teach you to run your gun, on the move, clear stoppages, and do ALL of it from the holster under time pressure and the stress of competition. It is NOT "tactical" or "combat"...but it IS an arena that builds and maintains shooting skills that once mastered, will translate into skills in the defensive shooting arena.

This, of course, is in my own not-so-humble opinion formed over 25 years of LE, training, and street time.

[AZSig]

This reply was a more in depth explanation of what I was trying to convey with little time to do it.
I must say I agree with all of it, this is exactly how you should look at FoF training.

I do have one minor caution about the advice given in reference to IDPA or USPSA etc. . . type shooting competitions. While it is an incredible way to test and train your gun handling and marksman skills it is also a great way to develop some REALLY BAD training scars that will put you at a serious disadvantage in real world defensive shooting if you are not very careful while training and competing (Though it can be done)

[Frisco]

This reply was a more in depth explanation of what I was trying to convey with little time to do it.
I must say I agree with all of it, this is exactly how you should look at FoF training.

I do have one minor caution about the advice given in reference to IDPA or USPSA etc. . . type shooting competitions. While it is an incredible way to test and train your gun handling and marksman skills it is also a great way to develop some REALLY BAD training scars that will put you at a serious disadvantage in real world defensive shooting if you are not very careful while training and competing (Though it can be done)

I am generally unconvinced of that argument. I have seen entirely too many so-called "tactical trainer dewds" come out to a Police Combat, PPC, USPSA, or steel match thinking that they are going to show the shooters how cool they are and dominate the match....and fall apart. I don't mean "not do well"...what I mean is fall all the fucking way apart under the relatively small amount of stress and pressure you experience in a match compared to the real deal.

Their so-called "tactical awesomy" doesn't work outside the narrow one-trick pony show of the gee whizzness they are trying to SELL to those who don't know diddly about shooting to begin with.

Let's take a moment to talk about "real world" defensive shooting. I spent over 25 years working patrol, gangs-narcotics, raiding dope houses, taking down meth labs, doing direct interdiction, and training others how to do it. I didn't learn anything (or survive my career) by watching cool youtube videos, and reading what the Tactical Dood who is popular on TV this month says or writes in a column he uses to SELL his "revolutionary method". I learned it by training. I learned it by doing it. All the skills I used in the "real world" were honed and sharpened in one way or another by the decades I have competed in matches along with training in the defensive shooting arena. They go hand-in-hand quite well.

When you mention "training scars"....be specific. Name them, and how they can "put you at a serious disadvantage...", otherwise the lack of specificity make your statement sound a LOT like a canned "drive by" usage of a phrase Larry Vickers (whom I trained with years ago) uses to describe "something learned in training that stung you a bit, but ultimately led to learning something".

A "training scar" is not a bad thing. It is actually a positive because it was something learned in the training arena that can be added to the toolbox that will ultimately make you better. Give me the shit out of some training scars...because it means I learned something to do or NOT to do and added something I can use to my toolbox.

Failure to actually TRAIN is where the disconnect between ANY type of shooting and performing lays.

I will disagree that competition coupled with real defensive training (not the garbage taught by 99% of the so-called tactical trainers and hucksters) will in ANY way degrade one's ability to (let's call defensive shooting what it is) fight with a handgun, shotgun, or rifle. It will only enhance the shooter's ability in the end because they have learned over time on the range to truly SHOOT, and run their gun instead of their gun running them, and they certainly learn a shit pot more than they will in a two-days of poorly slapped together "tactical training".

No...I really don't have a very high opinion of the extreme vast majority of so-called "tactical trainers" selling their goods nowadays. It has become a racket for any wanker with a tattoo sleeve, wrap around shades, and a cool looking business card to set up a "training business" and peddle bad info, shoddy techniques that LOOK all tacticooly...but just flat ass won't work in the "real world".

THAT is where real "scars" will come from...of course they are from bullet holes, knife wounds, ass whuppins, and from the guy who just took your gun and boot stomped you into the ground before he shot you with it.

[AZSig]

First I want to be clear that I was agreeing with you on all fronts. I thought your response was spot on, thoughtful, and full of great advice. I am not trying to start an argument about anything. I absolutely think doing USPSA, IPSC, IDPA etc is one of the best ways to run your gun and master gun handling and I have done them before.

But in response to your question, we have different definition of "Training scars" which is fine just a different understanding. My use of the term references bad habits that can be picked up while training or gaming with your pistol.

My biggest issue with "Gaming" with your pistol is that you are required to quickly put away an unloaded gun. In my opinion someone who carrys a gun to protect ones self and their family should never be comfortable re-holstering an unloaded gun after the encounter (i.e. the stage is done). Also you should never be comfortable putting your gun away without first checking your surroundings. Having worked in LE I am sure you agree with this.

In my opinion this is not a big deal if you are consciously thinking about a real world situations and what you would do in a real encounter while you are gaming. What I was referring to specifically was the people who only game with their gun and never do training outside of it. In my opinion that puts you at a disadvantage.

[Frisco]

First I want to be clear that I was agreeing with you on all fronts. I thought your response was spot on, thoughtful, and full of great advice. I am not trying to start an argument about anything. I absolutely think doing USPSA, IPSC, IDPA etc is one of the best ways to run your gun and master gun handling and I have done them before.

But in response to your question, we have different definition of "Training scars" which is fine just a different understanding. My use of the term references bad habits that can be picked up while training or gaming with your pistol.

My biggest issue with "Gaming" with your pistol is that you are required to quickly put away an unloaded gun. In my opinion someone who carrys a gun to protect ones self and their family should never be comfortable re-holstering an unloaded gun after the encounter (i.e. the stage is done). Also you should never be comfortable putting your gun away without first checking your surroundings. Having worked in LE I am sure you agree with this.

In my opinion this is not a big deal if you are consciously thinking about a real world situations and what you would do in a real encounter while you are gaming. What I was referring to specifically was the people who only game with their gun and never do training outside of it. In my opinion that puts you at a disadvantage.

I would agree with scanning your area for threats. BUT...having said that...if you look at the way these so-called "tactical trainers" do it, it isn't a "real" scan. It's a perfunctory bit of ballistic ballet.

I teach students to actually scan and take in their surroundings and then ask them to tell me WHAT they saw during their scan. There is no prohibition against scanning before reholstering at a match (though admittedly many don't do it...but that is a shortcoming from whomever "taught" them.

"Are you okay?" - "Did you see that (insert weapon here)"? are also NEVER added to so-called training. Think about it...if you LOOK like a guy who just smoked another human being and in your "scan" are looking for other victims...then witnesses may/will interpret you as such. ASKING them if they are okay and pointing out a weapon that they may not have seen sets YOU up as the one who protected THEM from a deadly assault. No one that I am aware of (other than me) teaches that. That is what I call a Training Fail.

Yes...you do reholster an empty gun on the match range.....but we also do it at the academies (99% of the time). It is one of those things that are done for safety, because sadly you always have to assume that there is "that one guy" who isn't safe with a loaded pistol outside the shooting box. BUT...as I have said...a blend of competition and training and working on mindset will cure that.

Gaming...yeah...there are a LOT of gamers, but they aren't really the subject of this discussion. I use carry gear and a carry gun in ALL my matches and shoot in Limited (basically a stock gun with full capacity magazines). The Limited and Production shooters are the core of the competition/defensive shooters who compete to sharpen all their skills.

[AZSig]

"Yes...you do reholster an empty gun on the match range.....but we also do it at the academies (99% of the time). It is one of those things that are done for safety, because sadly you always have to assume that there is "that one guy" who isn't safe with a loaded pistol outside the shooting box. BUT...as I have said...a blend of competition and training and working on mindset will cure that."

Agreed, This was exactly the point I was making.